John Saward [00:00:02] I'm sitting here at the Don Bosco Conference Centre in the Lysterfield Valley in the foothills of the Dandenong Ranges, just east of Melbourne, and the 2020 Social Developers' Network Annual Workshop has just finished. And I have with me John Russell, who has been attending the workshop. And I'm going to ask John a few questions about his experience of the workshop and his experience of SDN over the years. John, you've come a long way for this workshop? Where do you live?

John Russell [00:00:40] No, I live in Melbourne.

John Saward [00:00:42] OK, so it wasn't far for you to come. What motivated you to come to this workshop?

John Russell [00:00:48] Because I've attended almost almost every workshop that's ever been held. So I am committed to the concept. And this is why I'm still coming. But I'm very... I'm quite pleased the fact that the workshops are still running since they first started in the seventies.

John Saward [00:01:14] So they started in the 70's and we're now 2020. That's sort of a long time. What's been your motivation to keep going for so long? I mean, what do you get out of it personally and how do you think it benefits society?

John Russell [00:01:30] Well, I did a social work course because I was interested in social change. So that... And I graduated in 1968, which is the year that I met Ned. And I ... And he and I started these workshops as a way of trying to promote social change and help people to participate in social change movements. So we had... we had the concept of looking at both the personal and the macro and micro, the personal and the community focus. And so our workshops are different from most in that they attempt to cover both aspects.

John Saward [00:02:30] When was the first workshop you attended or co-produced?

John Russell [00:02:34] Well, Ned and I have a difference of opinion. So we are not too sure. I thought it was pre-Whitlam or early Whitlam. Certainly, certainly it was well underway, in the Whitlam era.

John Saward [00:02:51] What year might have that been?

John Russell [00:02:54] Well I'm not sure. Could have been 72. I'm not sure what year he was elected.

John Saward [00:03:02] As we know Ned isn't around to give his opinion anymore. But let's go with early '70s. Are you able to recall that first workshop? Tell us how many people, where it was, and what you did and achieve together?

John Russell [00:03:17] Well, it was in the Morrisset psychiatric hospital.

John Saward [00:03:20] OK, a good beginning.

John Russell [00:03:22] Where... Yeah... And Ned was the one who organised.. his medical, his medical background maybe helped him to secure. But ... we stayed in the nurses quarter. ... The nurses quarters were empty for some reason. But yes we stayed in the nurses quarters, and we met in one of the dining rooms. I can't remember where we met. It's a little bit hazy. I know there... there were kangaroos in the yard. But... and I can't remember. The only other person besides Ned and I that I know were there was Hugh Thompson who was a student at Armidale at the time I think, he also knew Ned.

John Saward [00:04:21] Do you recall any of the sessions, what was presented? What was discussed?

John Russell [00:04:25] No, I can't recall. But Ned would have taken a bit of space because Ned's big. One of Ned's very good qualites is his ability to analyse the current situation and to to put his finger on issues that need to be addressed or that we should be concerned about.

John Saward [00:04:52] OK. You mentioned that Ned and yourself were very wanting these workshops to to focus on on two things at once. Personal... can we call it personal learning? And society change. Do you find that aspiration is being achieved through the years with SDN?

John Russell [00:05:18] Oh, I think it is. Ned looks like... talks about the Ying and Yang.

John Saward [00:05:24] Okay.

John Russell [00:05:25] So the personal, ... the micro and macro. So it depends... On the whole we'd like to have a mix. We'd like... prefer to have a mixture of males and females because the males tend to go for the macro and women, women tend to focus on the micro.

John Saward [00:05:46] Is that right, that's been your experience.

John Russell [00:05:48] Well, that's my interpretation. You know, women are more more sensitive, I think, to personal issues. And men tend to focus outward more and tend to be less articulate. I think it's important... I think it's important we have ... we've never had a single sex workshop. I'm pleased to say.

John Saward [00:06:18] And jumping forward to this workshop that just concluded for you. Do you mind? Did you present a session? And if so, are you able to tell us something about what you presented?

John Russell [00:06:33] I did something for the first time in that I... I am involved with with a community development magazine. And we published an article by somebody called Jim Ife, who is a well respected social work professor. A retired professor. About the outcome of the elections. And it is a fairly confronting paper about where we are heading now because of the results ..., because of the results of the election and because of the way that... because what that indicates... and a lack of positive assessment of how we how we can deal with climate change and a number of other issues we are faced with as well.

John Russell [00:07:35] So this was a seven page paper with some depth and it ended up with an aspect, or a concern, that we should look more for indigenous ways of solving problems than the Western civilization ways of doing.

John Saward [00:08:01] So you would like to see more indigenous ways come in to the ways we tackle issues in the west, in Australia.

John Russell [00:08:12] We also.. Ned was always very keen on restorative practice, which is also, which is also related, I think to the indigenous way of solving problems or determining futures. But we generally have a balance. Well, we... we'd like to see a balance of issue papers or presentations. Some some some looking at micro issues and some looking at macro issues or personal and community wide issues. But the paper that Jim Ife provided was really more was a macro, very much a macro issue.

John Russell [00:09:03] So you presented that paper at this workshop? You went over it.

John Russell [00:09:07] Well, I had it circulated beforehand so everybody was expected to read it before we discussed it.

John Saward [00:09:15] And so the session took the form of discussion about the issues raised in that paper. Would that be right?

John Russell [00:09:23] Yes. So we went we went round on every point. Most person commented on, what they thought about the paper. And there was a very, very, very. There was varied opinions.

John Russell [00:09:37] But the general the general the general opinion was a paper which showed a fairly negative, negative direction for the future of society. But it had some some some hope that we needed. We needed to try to introduce social change quicker than what we can do at the moment.

John Saward [00:10:09] So right now, as we as we sit here, it's only a week or two since the mega fires of Australia early in January 2020. And there's been a lot of angst about that on social media and in the media and a lot of discussion leading to perhaps some some lessening of hope in the future. At this workshop, what's your feeling? Did you detect a feeling of losing hope? Or did you detect a feeling amongst the participants that No! - we have ways forward.

John Russell [00:10:49] Well, what I think is important, I'm fairly optimistic in my approach.

John Russell [00:10:56] I think the people are certainly very concerned. The paper that we talked about was written before the bushfires. And the major, the first issue that Jim Ife identified was climate change. That was the first issue.

John Russell [00:11:13] The major issue out of a number of issues it was probably the most significant, and the most concerning. So the fires just reinforced his concerns and made people, I think the overall result of the workshop was that people would have went away with perhaps more hope than they had before beforehand.

John Saward [00:11:43] OK, so you feel that an outcome of this workshop that that people worked towards hope?

John Russell [00:11:49] I think so.

John Saward [00:11:52] And you personally?

John Russell [00:11:53] Yes.

John Saward [00:11:54] You said you generally sit on the hopeful side.

John Russell [00:11:57] Yeah, I'm generally... I'm optimistic, certainly. So I just do my best to try to work in a positive way.

John Saward [00:12:13] And do you feel... do you feel that's a strength of yours in, say, supporting others, that you look on the hopeful side and the positive side and stay optimistic?

John Russell [00:12:25] Yeah, I think that that's what the workshops achieve. I think so. Even though we talk about major issues and problems, we look at how ... we look at ways of how we can address them.

John Saward [00:12:39] In between.

John Saward [00:12:41] Sorry, you were going to say?

John Russell [00:12:43] I wasn't going to say, I can't remember.

John Saward [00:12:44] But in between these workshops. How do the community support each other?

John Russell [00:12:54] Well. What... well, I work in... I have one or two or three committees and all of whom are involved in positive work trying to bring about positive social change. In between workshops, I'm also working in other areas to try and bring about what I what I seem to be as such positive social change and what I... but the main role for workshops, for me, since I've started since I've been coming is to give me reinforcement for what I'm doing or to to give me some corrections or alternative ideas about how how I'm going about doing my particular activity at the time.

John Russell [00:13:52] I've been fortunate, in that, I've always been paid to, on the whole... I've had jobs where I've been paid to be a change agent. So that I'm very fortunate... fortunate in that regard. I haven't always... I haven't always stayed in in some jobs... I had a very wide range of jobs, and I'm very pleased with what I've been able to be involved with over my career because I'm now 81. I'm starting to wind down.

John Saward [00:14:33] And the work you did as change agent, would they have been a government department or non-profit organisations or universities or groups of people?

John Russell [00:14:44] I've always tried to avoid working for government. I prefer I work my my work better where we're in a small organisation. So some of which I've... I've been a lone worker and some are some of some I've worked worked in different sort of positions. In the Whitlam era I became a social planner. So I had ... ... it was a great job. And I was able to to institute a lot of changes because there were resources around. I wrote a submission for a community health centre, which became a very, very big long term concern. And I was I was responsible for a geographical area, about five municipalities in Melbourne. Before that I also... One of my earlier jobs was was for a small organisation in Redfern called South Sydney Community Aid, which I was the first social worker they had. And we had an office worker, but I was able to achieve a lot of... A number of different programs, including the early days of the Aboriginal Medical Service and the Aboriginal Legal Service. I was able to be involved in the establishment of those. That I was a migrant social worker. I worked with migrants, so I was involved in a lot of interesting change, social change there. But I used to talk about my work when we had the annual workshop and I got feedback about what I was doing.

John Saward [00:16:46] You mentioned the term change agent. In all of your work or your consideration of issues and action steps, do you call yourself a social developer?

John Russell [00:16:59] Yes I do.

John Saward [00:16:59] That is a label you're comfortable with?

John Russell [00:17:02] Yeah, I'm comfortable with it.

John Saward [00:17:03] And I know you've touched on this already in your answers. But what what is the role of a social developer in society?

John Russell [00:17:12] Well, one of the people who came to this workshop, did a very good paper where he listed different types of change agents... there were four categories and I can't remember the categories now. But I suppose when I was, what made me, helped me a lot was when I was a student, I went to New Guinea, and... I grew up in the country. I was... Before I ... went to university I thought Australia was an egalitarian society. But when I went to New Guinea, I could, which was a protectorate in 1966, it was still a protectorate. And a lot of people working there in senior positions were Australians... or in administration. But there was a general unconscious ethnocentrism. I think it was quite clear that..., a lot of the Australians living there saw the local citizens as not at their level.

John Russell [00:18:34] But I diverted from what you were asking me.

John Saward [00:18:38] That's okay.

John Russell [00:18:42] So I was ... when I was in university I read up on social journals about what was happening in America with the war on poverty, and there are lots of lots of programs to try and bring about social justice within, say, healthy neighbourhoods... Negro or black American areas.

John Russell [00:19:17] And so social work as a discipline has three alternative activities, I suppose one is casework, which most social workers do. Another one is group work, which a few social workers do, and the other one is community development, which also a few social workers do. So, so the majority of social workers do casework and a smaller number do group work or community development. So I've focussed on community development. My last paid job was what I'd had never wanted to do particularly, which was I worked for the government. I joined Centrelink as a social worker. So I had 13 years up to 65 when I retired. But when I first joined Centrelink, I was quite... it wasn't a problem. I found I quite liked doing casework, but also I was able to do community work. So as a Centrelink social worker, I could be involved in local, local community organisations. And I helped form a network of local community organisations to share ideas and to work together to achieve community change in the local, in the neighbourhood where I was responsible for Centrelink activities.

John Saward [00:20:52] So John, you obviously attended a lot of these workshops.

John Russell [00:20:55] Yes almost all.

John Saward [00:20:56] And, I'm just trying to calculate it. It's 30, 40, 50 workshops.

John Russell [00:21:01] Well, we also used to have, we still do occasionally have regional workshops. So it's not just an annual workshop, I've been at many regionals.

John Saward [00:21:10] So it's certainly not new to you. And going back a few minutes ago, you said the word correction in relation to one of the things you get out of these workshops, I believe you're referring to correcting your own way you work.

John Russell [00:21:27] The way I'm doing things, yeah.

John Saward [00:21:29] And so after all these workshops, has this particular workshop brought into your mind any corrections for yourself?

John Russell [00:21:40] Well, I normally... this is the first time I haven't talked about an activity that I'm doing. So, because I like I said I'm 81, I've wound down but.... I'm still involved. I'm still involved in a couple of projects with another organisation. But I retired from paid work when I was 70. And that was five years after I left Centrelink.

John Russell [00:22:17] So what was your question again?

John Saward [00:22:20] How has this workshop changed you? Has it changed you in any way?

John Russell [00:22:25] Yes, it's changed me personally, because I... we had ... last night we had a group hug. And it wasn't last night, the night before. The night before we had a group hug, this last night, with people. And then I felt... We had ... there was there was this bit of a disagreement, then it was resolved and we had a group hug. And I asked for a lift. We used to do this in the early workshops where people people were levitated or picked up somebody off the floor. And with their eyes closed and raised up in the air. And I found that quite a comforting sort of activity. So that I then in the morning I talked about that and I said that and I talked about my own situation in it. I had I had parents who were very caring, but they weren't demonstrative.

John Saward [00:23:51] OK,.

John Russell [00:23:52] So. And so I get tearful quite often in workshops...

John Saward [00:23:59] OK.

John Russell [00:23:59] ... when I get... when I feel, something touches me. So I shed a few tears yesterday morning and and, you know, I just talked about how how I missed that my parents were not demonstrative, so I got a lot of hugs, people people were very, very supportive.

John Saward [00:24:46] Very good. As you share that, I get a sense that that you value the opportunity to be emotive, it's not an issue to you.

John Russell [00:24:55] Well, well, I cry at the drop of a hat. Well, when I was interviewing clients at Centrelink, if something touched me, I'd shed a tear or two. But I dont think it is... I call myself as over empathetic. Just...

John Saward [00:25:21] I relate to that. I'm much the same. I'm not going into that space in this interviewing role, but I relate to what you say. And carrying on from that. Would you say that the workshops do have an emotive feeling aspect as well as a discussion logical aspect?

John Russell [00:25:45] Well, yeah. I help that.

John Saward [00:25:48] You help that, that's your role?

John Russell [00:25:52] And then when Ned and I started Ned would provide intellectual a lot of intellectual input and good, good personal insights as well. But I would pick up on emotional things.

John Saward [00:26:06] Really.

John Russell [00:26:06] So in that sense, we were a good combination.

John Saward [00:26:11] Did Ned value that, did you turn Ned around in that aspect?

John Russell [00:26:16] I didn't, turn... He didn't need to be turned around. But he did he did learn not to talk a lot, so much. Some people just objected, the fact that he... but what he said was always very good or helpful. But he would tend to maybe make the point longer than he needed to.

John Saward [00:26:36] Okay.

John Russell [00:26:37] So... some people might have felt competitive. I don't know. But. We had, there was a psychiatrist that came once. And, there was too much dialogue. So we had to close them down a bit. But there... I'll always... my role is to try and... If I think we're getting too much in the head, I'll try and find a way to bring more emotional content or looking at, or having a different session, which would help to balance up. So there's not that head stuff... it needs to be... I think one of the things we try and do is get some balance between the yin and yang, the person and the community.

John Saward [00:27:37] Are you able to remember or recall a specific example of how you might turn events out of the head into emotions, how might you go about that?

John Russell [00:27:49] Well, if, I get upset about something I'll talk about it.

John Saward [00:27:54] You'd talk about it. And perhaps then other people feel invited to also talk about their own emotional responses.

John Russell [00:28:01] But when people are talking about... what one thing I can do sometimes is point out, pointing out some feeling issues in what they're saying, which is not not at the feeling level.

John Saward [00:28:17] Okay.

John Russell [00:28:18] So you can you can ask you can ask questions or make comments or try and draw out other things. If perhaps somebody is talking about a project they're doing, well, then you can you can ask questions about what, had you thought about doing this, or to talk to this person, or, you know, you can you can skirt around some of the emotional issues.

John Saward [00:28:48] I imagine after your life experience and your... the number of these workshops you've attended, you have quite an ability to sense, discern, what's not being said by people and their feelings and what's slightly under the surface. And, could that be right?

John Russell [00:29:09] I used to be able to do that.

John Saward [00:29:11] You used to be. You've retired from that?

John Russell [00:29:14] Well, I'm not sure how good I am at that now,.

John Saward [00:29:18] But I imagine you do see and hear a lot.

John Saward [00:29:21] Just changing the topic before we conclude. I understand also you're on the board of NED Foundation, which supports the Social Developers' Network and these workshops. Just very briefly, what's your role in the board? What do you work towards?

John Russell [00:29:42] Well, what I'm... just a member but... Ned, once he had learned about it, he was very keen on Restorative Practice. And I also am very keen on Restorative Practices, not just because Ned is, because I see it as very valuable thing. If we could introduce Restorative Practices in the schools, society would change because children would be able to solve their own problems.

John Saward [00:30:25] So Restoractive Practice is a heartfelt issue for you.

John Russell [00:30:30] Yeah, I'm not sure how I start talking about that.

John Saward [00:30:35] That doesnt matter.

John Russell [00:30:35] But what did you ask me about?

John Saward [00:30:42] Just before okay, one final question, a couple of final questions, if you could scan your memory of these last five days here at the workshop. What's the high point for you? Having been here.

John Russell [00:31:00] Yesterday morning, I got a lot of.. a bit of what I call adulation, ... they put me on a chair in the middle of the story, and did a breathing exercise which... I'm now being, it's the first time I'm being told, being called an Elder.

John Saward [00:31:34] Okay. Okay. Thank you for all that, john, is there anything else you'd like to talk about, about the workshop? Anything else you'd like to add?

John Russell [00:31:44] No, not that I can... No, nothing pressing like... But I think that I just think that it has it has helped a lot of people, I think it's interesting that it's not, it hasn't expanded greatly.

John Saward [00:32:11] Thank you, John. We'll conclude it there. Have a good day.

John Russell [00:32:15] Ok, thanks.