Harry Creamer at interview after 2020 SDN Workshop

Harry Creamer was interviewed by John Saward after the 2020 SDN Annual workshop.

The interview was conducted in the common room at the venue, Don Bosco Retreat Centre, in Lysterfield, Victoria.

Harry Creamer is the SDN Co-ordinator, and was a participant in the workshop.

John Saward interviewing Harry Creamer
Harry Creamer at interview after 2020 SDN Workshop
https://sdnhub.org.au/interview/harry-2020-after
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2020 workshop interview with Harry Creamer

John Saward [00:00:05] I'm sitting here with Harry Creamer and the 2020 SDN workshop has just concluded, we're at Lysterfield in the outer region of Melbourne in the foothills of the Dandenong Ranges. As we look out the window, it's a very serene, peaceful feeling we have out here. It looks a little bit dry, but it's benign. It looks like a very peaceful world.

John [00:00:34] So, Harry, you've just come through an experience of what was it? Five days of sitting with 15 people?

Harry Creamer [00:00:41] Four. Four full days.

John [00:00:44] What was it? Fifteen people?

Harry [00:00:46] 14.

John [00:00:47] Fourteen. And although I said sitting, I doubt you were sitting all the time. But you tell me, tell me how these workshops are structured, what... What happens in them, what happened in this one? Everybody sit around in a circle all the time or? Or what?

Harry [00:01:04] Yes, John. Well, since you begin by mentioning the location, I don't know whether another question will touch on this, but I would like to say what a good venue the Don Bosco Retreat Centre has been for us. We were a small group of 14 people and it just suited our needs so well. Both the the facilities, there's a lot of space. So the actual room that we met in was was quite large and well lit, carpeted with a screen which plugged into a computer. So anybody with power points could actually just plug in. And this large TV screen on the wall would would come on with no problems. No, no, you know, how do how do we make it work? That was good. The kitchen was good. Sort of large group catering kitchen. There was a large dining room. Three... Three people have their own flats, self-contained flats. And the rest of us, eleven of us, had private rooms, private private rooms and shared bathrooms, but a maximum of three to a bathroom. So and as John said, the the pastoral landscape around Don Bosco is beautiful. I mean, and people said, you know, people commented while the country's not like this where I come from. And I feel that, too. I come from the coast. And so these rolling hills with cattle in one field, sheep in the other. These trees are beautiful gum trees, really individual gum trees, just a beauty, a walk up to the hill with the granite rocks, the sort of picnic at hanging rock atmosphere that you get in this part of Victoria. So I recommend it. If you're thinking of having a small group workshop, and I just say thank you to Chris, Father Chris, who is the manager here. Lovely, lovely chap. Nowhere any problems.

Harry [00:03:13] So you asked a little bit about the workshop and how how it progressed. It was four full days, so it's quite right., we arrived on the Friday evening and we had our first session on the Friday evening, which was the welcome circle, and of course, the fire briefing and the emergency briefing, which people needed to feel reassured about. And the procedures here are in place. And they're good. Thankfully, they weren't used. We didn't need to use them.

Harry [00:03:44] And then the first session on the Saturday morning was the program's session. That's always what we do at an SDN workshop, because it's an open agenda, because it's I mean, the agenda is a blank canvas to begin with. So we have to populate it... I think that's the expression... With people's presentations. And there are two in the morning, two in the afternoon, one in the evening. That's five sessions a day, over four days is in theory, 20 sessions. People can go longer or they can go shorter. But each session about one and a half hours. And then, look, that's the way it worked out. And you have to keep an eye on the time, because if you run too late, then you're spoiling it for the next person. And anyway, people need morning and afternoon tea breaks and a lunch break and then they need to break early enough for dinner or maybe to go for a walk and come back, have dinner and come back to the evening session. So this time we missed out on our excursion. We normally have an excursion, but it became very clear on Saturday morning that there wasn't going to be enough time for an excursion and I just shrugged my shoulders and thought, well, Puffing Billy can wait. Or William Rickets Gardens were another day. Fair enough.

Harry [00:04:54] Look, I think that probably is enough scene setting, although it depends on your next question. I would like to tell people about the participants and about my personal reactions.

John [00:05:06] Well, let's start with your personal reaction. How do you feel after the workshop?

Harry [00:05:12] Oh, I feel very elevated.

Harry [00:05:19] And energized. Let's continue the 'e's... Enthusiastic and empowered.

Harry [00:05:28] So all these things. I'm not kidding. This is not just rhetoric. It is a unique experience. I mean, I don't know of any other experience where you get together with 13... in this case, 13 other people. So I'd met about half the people, a little over half the people I probably met before, and maybe six people I'd never met before. And we quickly established that everybody was people like us and that, you know, that's good because, you know, you share this intense experience with people... Not exactly like us, but enough like us to know that it's you... you can you can you can trust, you can form, trust, trusting bonds with any with anybody in that room. That's the way I felt. I can trust you. I can trust you. You know, so you need trust for different occasions.

Harry [00:06:29] So you need trust in an SDN in workshop to tell ... To speak up for a start ... trust... trust that you will be heard in a open and non-judgemental and accepting way. You need trust to tell your story, to tell whatever it is, your session, because you have the floor. People, all eyes.... thirteen eyes are on you. You need trust. You need trust if you feel like having a cry, I came up with various euphemisms, for crying. There is tearing up. There's breaking down, and there's... what's the other one? Eyes leaking. Somebody said. So there was a fair bit of that going on.

John [00:07:17] So it is an emotive experience, not just intellectual, not as headspace. People move emotions in themselves, and share emotions. Is that true?

Harry [00:07:29] Oh, yes, very much so.

John [00:07:32] Tell us more about that aspect of the experience.

Harry [00:07:35] Yes, well, a lot of the topics... so, yes, you build trust. You. You learn to let go of the restraints on that particular very beneficial side of your emotional makeup, of your makeup... As you rightly point out, it's it's either intellect, intellectual and emotional... it's both and... Both... The best workshops, the best participation incorporates both intellectual and emotional. So people were moved. I mean, yes, they were moved to tears at times by the depth of the of the discussions, that sort of topics that we were covering. There was a particularly moving one for me, for example, which was imagining twenty one hundred. So the group was divided into seven young people. Imagine age 18 in twenty one hundred and seven elders who who were drawn from the present group but had somehow survived to twenty one hundred. And we were having this discussion and just all the troubles we went through, the disasters, the losses, and how we grew out of that, how we managed to emerge from that to a new a wonderful new society, green and caring and participatory democracy, decision making and all that. So I found that that one, for example, very moving.

Harry [00:09:12] But yes, I mean, there were certainly there was certainly some presentations in... In the more sort of traditional way for a workshop. I mean, there were... There were a couple of power points. But interestingly, for one of those power points, a real thinker of a participant from Melbourne who made two power points and one of them was called feedback loops. And you'd think that was highly theoretical. And he would show how one thing leads to another. And that amplifies. And that means more of that or less of that. And that comes and then the whole thing gets worse. But it wasn't just climate change or systems breakdown or sustainability breakdown. He also just used the example of back pain. For example, he said you've got back pain. And then that... that's one bubble. Then it comes round to quarter, quarter after. And it's you do less, you lift less, you exercise less. The next one is your back weakens because you've got less. That's the next one is you get more back pain. And it goes on.

Harry [00:10:22] And but it was particularly the ecological breakdown, the the climate change breakdown that led another participant to actually take it all literally that this person was saying this has to happen this way. He wasn't, he was just saying these feedback loops do exist. And and it would be nice if we could break the links. And it's possible to break the links, for example, to do more exercise when you, you know, when you have a backpain. But this person actually experienced bodily reaction to this feedback loop thing. And I trust him, and what he said, you know, it was quite, quite an interesting reaction, with the group. By that time, we'd been meeting for three days. And the group, the group just supported that person.

Harry [00:11:12] So let's have a look at a couple of other, others. I mean, yes, the head, the head sort of stuff. We had the Uluru statement from the heart. Fantastically appropriate.

Harry [00:11:24] We had, we had a session on, on money, and, and its relationship to, to wider issues. And, and also personal, the personal and the political about money. And that was that was very helpful and useful... Session on storytelling, two sessions on storytelling, the Art of Storytelling, the different components of a story. Then that person followed up with a session later in the workshop about telling stories with videos with the new technology and the Internet. We had two sessions on theories of change, on what it takes to shift opinion, what it takes to shift change, to make change. We had a session on Restorative Practice in the ACT, and what a struggle it was trying to get things to happen even with the ACT government, progressive as it is. And, and there you go, and one on relationships the importance of relationships. There was this distinction made, which I picked up new things, at this very basic distinction made between transactional connections and relationships, and relational, and, you know, I made the comment that relationship ones take a lot more time and effort than transaction ones. You know, using the example of the kitchen roster, for example, you know, the transactional way of doing a kitchen roster is just write the names out and say Saturday morning, it'll be so and so, Sunday so and so... But in fact, the relationship approach would be, well, who likes cooking? And then you'd like, you know. And actually, we didn't have to worry about that because those people that like cooking just took over the kitchen, which was great for people like me, but also the actual breakdown of the participants. I don't mean breakdown... I'm not trying to make a pun.

Harry [00:13:28] The actual composition of the participants were 14 people, seven of whom had attended an SDN in session before, and seven were new.

John [00:13:39] Seven were new, brand new and never attended a workshop...

Harry [00:13:42] I'm really pleased about that...

John [00:13:43] How did they come here. How did they hear about it?

Harry [00:13:50] Oh, different ways. Yes. Yes, there was....

Harry [00:13:54] Let me see... The NED organisation, which sits as an umbrella organization, of which the SDN sits as one program area. The NED organisation also gives grants, small, small grants, but not insignificant to people to to do projects like restorative practice or some sort of sustainability project or something. And that's another program area of NED. So the board of Ned made it clear that they would like the grantees to make an effort to come to the workshop.

Harry [00:14:34] So we had at least, at least four grantees, all of whom made wonderful contributions. And to the... Three of the grantees, I should say, were linked with probably one project in Canberra and another grantee was from South Australia.

John [00:14:56] So these grantees where I able in some way to present the work that we're doing in each projects, or not.

Harry [00:15:04] Both.

John [00:15:05] Both...

Harry [00:15:05] Actually not. Not that every one of them presented both. I mean, the group from Canberra presented their NED project. Explained... Explained how they were using the grant money from the NED organisation. Yes. The grantee. The NED grantee from South Australia, to my knowledge, is a really independent thinker and worker and creative worker. And he gave us the storytelling sessions. So I'm not sure that the NED money went to that. It doesn't matter. He's here. He's here and he's imparting his, his knowledge, which is great, great, great.

Harry [00:15:45] Which So seven new. The other way was I used my climate activist networks, my climate campaigning... I'm delighted about this because I got two people from Melbourne, one an older man in my age group, another younger man who I met again through climate campaigning. I mean, the names, names are shared, addresses, emails. And I make a point of trying to meet people. If I'm in Melbourne and I had to meet these two and I did in August and I invited them along and it's wonderful that they said yes. So the youngest one was 33 and he was young... he was the youngest one at the workshop. And he's the younger of the two from Melbourne. So he was 33. One of the people from Canberra, a woman, a young woman, was 35 and another one was 43 from Sydney.

Harry [00:16:43] So that to our minds, is the younger cohort. And of course, like most organisations, certainly all organisations were set up in the 1970s. I mean, our demographics aging visibly. I mean, there are people I invited to this workshop who said, you know, either I cannot come. I'm too old and infirm in so many words or I cannot come. I am caring for my wife, in two cases, you know. So to have those young people were was absolutely great. The oldest, oldest age was 82. There was an 81 year old. There was a 77 year old, 71 year old. I'm nearly 69. And then there were three people in their 50s and four people in their 60s, of which I'm one. So I'm very pleased with that demographic. And that that yes, that's all I have to say about the sort of nuts and bolts of the workshops.

John [00:17:48] So outside the sessions, describe what happened. Did you socialise, go for walks, you go to the pub. What happens outside?

Harry [00:17:59] No, we missed out. We missed our excursion. Did I say that before?

John [00:18:02] You did actually.

Harry [00:18:03] There was just not the time. So we were in... We were on the premises all the time, except for brief shopping excursions to Upper Ferntree Gully. And there is a particular walk which a number of us went on, which is up the hill to the boulders, which is wonderful, wonderful walk. There were lot of I mean, this sort campus style. This location is campus style. There's a quadrangle and the meeting room is off the quadrangle. And the dining kitchen, dining through a nice little covered vine-covered pagoda system and so on. So one of the nice things was coming away from a session, maybe maybe going to my room or something to freshen up or something, then coming back and seeing people in huddles, in groups, you know, often groups of two, you know, of just finishing up on unfinished business or taking something further or another group of three or four in another corner.

Harry [00:19:08] Wonderful to know that the momentum, even it slows down between the presentations, but it doesn't stop.

Harry [00:19:17] And of course, another secret ingredient of an SDN workshop is that we all live in under the same roof for this period of time, Friday evening to Wednesday morning, although some did go on Tuesday, five went on Tuesday evening. That's fair enough. And that we cook together, we eat together, we wash up together, you know, we do those those those communal things. So, yeah, you know, you are in these people's company not quite 24/7 because we have single rooms which we could escape to at the end of the day. And certainly, you know, putting my head on the pillow at the end of each day is a bless, a blessing, as I also think it is in everyday life. But, you know, and I was going to bed much later because, oh, because everything just is just so full of so much. And our sessions would end at about,theoretically at 9:00 p.m., but they'd often run over to nine thirty. And so I would often get to bed, you know, ten ten, which for me is slightly late.

John [00:20:24] So when people get together like this, sometimes, not always, conflict arises without going into any detail about particular conflicts. How does... How do you resolve conflicts when they come up in an environment like this?

Harry [00:20:45] If it's detectable within a session, it usually surfaces during the session. And then the group. It's a group participation and there would be, if it's, for example, between two people, then then, for example, somebody might might say, oh, oh, did I upset you with what I just said? Just checking. And then the person might say, yeah. Yeah, you well, you did really? Because... Then give a reason or something. And then we talk about it and it would it would be resolved. Maybe, maybe an apology then and there, whatever. I recall personally, I mean I said something in one of the early sessions, and and I said okay... It was a procedure. It's probably a procedural thing about doing things in its order or something like that. And somebody said, no, I think it would be better if we just did it in this order or something. And then afterwards that person came up to me and say said lovely words. Are we still right?

John [00:21:53] Oh good.

Harry [00:21:54] And I said, Yeah, of course we are. Which which... which makes the point. The other point is that, Happier, happie are the people in life who do not hold grudges, who do not hold on, who do not hold on to these things. I mean, this is it is better if one realizes that the self is just an imagining. We overblow the self and its importance and these slights to the self. We can we can say, where are they going? I mean, imagine oneself as a sort of mirage. They're just going through you just go through you. I won't hold onto that. I won't. I won't hold onto it and confront the person afterwards in private or something. But, you know, if you have to talk to somebody in private afterwards, that's fine and you can resolve it. But there is that goodwill. There is, as I said, right at the start, there is that trust. People like us. Goodwill. Really? I mean, this workshop... there were no there were no deep conflicts. I was certain about that. I have been told that in the past there have been and you know, I only started going to SDN workshops in 2012, but it's got a very deep past, as you've heard from other people. Now, this workshop was it was certainly free of any any anything you'd call conflict.

John [00:23:26] So you've been to quite a few, maybe eight, 10 workshops something like that? Is there anything left for you to learn about yourself from these workshops? And ... I'm giving you a moment to think about this. What did you learn about yourself in this particular workshop?

Harry [00:23:45] Yes.

Harry [00:23:46] Well, I'd say in general, I mean, I would like to reply that, yes, I will... I'm still at a phase where I have faith in, you know, that's possibly loaded word.... But I am confident that going to an SDN workshop is a very good investment of my time. I've often said there's no better way to start a year, a new year than going to an SDN workshop. So what I learend was... it was more reinforcing, reinforcing in a very strong way some things that I already know about myself. So, for example, how much I .... So how much I depend on other people. You know how much I get from interacting with other people.

Harry [00:24:45] And you know how important it is to be, and how my my brain, my mind, I suppose, between that one's mind. I mean, I've taken on the the advice for aging, that it's good to have social networks. So so. But when you see it so close and so, well, I would use the word intimate, intimately, in the sense of what I've been talking about. I mean, people in close contact for four days and so on. And then you really I realise that this reinforces this and that is very important. That doesn't mean to say that that that I can't cope with solitude or that I'm not looking forward to going home, which I am, obviously. But to have this. It's like an injection. It's like a boost is a hit. It's it's it's a it's a social, interrelational hit.

Harry [00:25:40] So. So that was confirmed, ist was confirmed to me several times, you know how I will tear up when I when I recount some certain aspects of my life. I think I was I was telling somebody about the journey of my life, literally. I mean, the journey to Australia. And I often, often get a bit emotional about that. So it is more confirming I mean, I learn I just probably learned certain quotation. I know I did learn stuff. I mean, I got three pages of notes here. I probably did learn learn new things with I have to reread it. So I suppose and so on. I certainly learned I now I learnt a lot about I learned a lot completely new knowledge about completely new people that I'd never met before and what they're doing in their lives and so on and and and how they're doing their community development, personal development, social development work. Yeah, that's probably what I learnt.

John [00:26:44] And your experience going back through workshops, you mentioned that you feel energized. I forget the other 'e's .. elated.... In your experience, does that... And the sense of supporting each other open it, being open with each other... how does that carry through after the workshop, before the next workshop, do you anticipate this feeling to continue? And whether it does or doesn't how do you support each other going forward? Outside workshop?

Harry [00:27:18] Well, that, again, is another good question. I would hope that... It depends. Indeed, each individual is different. So let me just put two possibilities. Some people are not sure exactly where I sit about this because it's very recent, very, very recent. Some people would want to go on having having close contact somehow. And I hope the new Internet technologies will enable this to go on having contact with those with those people that we've just been through this with. Other people, you know, will slip back into their own lives and their own social networks and their own ways. And it'll just it'll be a memory. It'll be a very happy and satisfying memory, a story to tell. I mean, you know, you can tell a story. You you can tell stories about SDN workshops. And as we were told in storytelling, you have got to capture the imagination on the on social media in seven seconds. So. So I might start by saying I was invited to an SDN workshop and I was really apprehensive because it was four days with entirely new people. But. I found it to be completely different. And then you go on and tell the story of the workshop.

Harry [00:28:44] So, so so yeah. In my case, I'll probably settle back into a bit of a pattern a little. It'll be a happy memory of another workshop. There'll be actual ways to revisit it. If I want to, there'll be a report on the workshop. There'll be an article in the newsletter. We had a wonderful group photograph out when the sunshine shone, which was great. And so there'll be ways to recapture it.

Harry [00:29:14] And of course, looking forward to the next one, whether it's a regional one during the year or the next annual one, and hopefully seeing some of these people again.

John [00:29:27] So the annual ones move around the country, I understand. So, I suppose it's not known yet where the next one will be, but it could be anywhere. Is that correct?

Harry [00:29:38] Yeah. Yeah. The the location of south East Queensland came up in discussions. And there's no doubt that obviously where you hold it, you have a catchment area of people who will find it easier to get there because in Melbourne's case, they get on the train or it's a short drive or whatever. So we've done so we've done Melbourne, as it were, recently. We actually had another one in Melbourne in 2013. So it's 2013 and 2020 in Melbourne. And we haven't... to my knowledge, been to Queensland. And yet they have a large organisation in Queensland called CD Queensland, Community Development Queensland. So it should be quite possible to recruit at least 14, and I think most people most people would agree 14 is a very good number. I was trying to get 18 because I've been to ones before 18 and I was sucked in by the sort of, you know, big is better.

John [00:30:46] OK, so you're not aiming to get 80 people along to a workshop, it would be a whole different creature.

Harry [00:30:51] Yes. Well, I have changed in that regard.

John [00:30:55] And good. One final question for you, Harry, before we begin to wind up, what's your... What do you feel is your greatest strength in supporting others?

Harry [00:31:06] Well, I have. I don't know about greatest, but I have organisational skills, which I apply to this task. I have commitment to the the venture that we're on and the aims, the ethos of SDN. I have, I have an, I'm open and honest and genuine. I have two sides to me. I I try and keep up with with some of the others intellectually. You know, a lot of the time the others can, can, can animate a conversation where I'm still thinking... I heard about that some time ago. I'm still trying to catch up with that. But I also have an emotional side too which I think which I think is good. And I'm a good networker. You know, I like meeting people. I like I I'm not content with with names and email addresses. I like to go out there and meet people and so on and tell them about this work. I think those are my strengths.

Harry [00:32:09] And thank you for the chance to... If this is a wind up. Thank you for your, for the chance to talk about it. Which. Which is lovely to be able to talk about it just. Oh, no less than. Well, you know what it really is.

John [00:32:23] Yes. It's very fresh in your mind. And yes, we do need to wind up. But anything else you want to convey briefly about your experience of the workshop.

Harry [00:32:34] It would be nice to have a little sort of final ending point handy, but I'm not sure that I can. I think I said I said everything, everything about it. And I hope people listen to it on the Web.

John [00:32:46] Thank you. We'll get it onto the Web soon. Thank you for your time...

Harry [00:32:50] Thank you, John.

John [00:32:51] ...today.